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How do we fix the Forza/ DD Wheel frame limit bug?

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Bernard Villers Jr

What can be done to improve direct drive wheel performance in Forza? Currently the frame rate is much lower when used with a DD wheel like the AccuForce.

This is a question that we've had spread throughout this forum but as an addendum to other posts. For example, this question was posted as an answer on another Forza related thread at one point.

This post question is meant to restore some order to the forum and give people a place specifically to discuss this matter.


Before posting an answer, please make sure that you fully understand the problem. I've attempted to describe the issue in detail here: Why Is Forza Framerate Lower With a DD Wheel?

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Henk Schoone
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I believe i have found a workaround for the framelimit issue using Forza Emuwheel (thx Perry)

-Download and unpack Forza emuwheel

https://forzatools.weebly.com/forza-emuwheel.html

-Run the configurator, uncheck FFB and only assign the AccuForce steering axis, save and exit

(alteratively you can download my present configuration.json here: https://www.mediafire.com/file/wllpbhakkb3n681/configuration.json/file and load it )

-Download and install vJoy and restart your PC

https://sourceforge.net/projects/vjoystick/

-Run the configure vJoy and set number of buttons to 128 and POV hatswitch to 1, save and exit.

Also explained here : Setup guide Forza emuwheel

https://forzatools.weebly.com/forza-emuwheel-setup-guide.html

-Run Forza emuwheel and press start

-Run Hush and click hide to hide the AccuForce from FH5

-Run FH5 and re-assign the steering axis to the vJoy virtual device. Make sure SC4 is not running in the back ground.

-Save and exit the game.

-Run FH5 through SC4

If you have done everything right all settings should look like this:

https://i.postimg.cc/CMNM8t0b/fh5-fix.png

Now you can run FH5 at full frame rate with the SC4 steering foundation FFB.

I haven't done full testing yet, but i believe the FFB feels a little different than what it was.

A bit more vague around the center on roads and a bit more roadbumps ofroad.

I still need to do some back to back testing to confirm this.

Known issues:

-If you have another device that also has a X-axis ( Fanatec HB ) it will not be recognised ingame

Workaround: Use Xpadder to assign the space bar to the Handbrake and it will work in game althoug you will you the analog function

-Changing steeringwheels might cause Forzaemuwheel to stop working, in that cause you need to restart it.

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Zebulon Luce
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Thank you Henk! This works a treat!

2 Answers
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Bernard Villers Jr
Best Answer

I think there are two possible solutions:

1-Write us and tell us that you would be happy to compromise performance in all other games in order to improve performance in Forza. If we see enough of this request, we can make a driver that does exactly that, but it will have to come with the added lag that a typical consumer-grade wheel driver does.

2-Write the Forza team and tell them you would like them to take advantage of modern processors and move their force feedback code onto a separate processing thread so that it doesn't take processing time away from the graphics thread.

If this doesn't make sense to you, please see a more in-depth description of the issue here: Why Is Forza Framerate Lower With a DD Wheel?

12 Comments
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Zebulon Luce
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I've submitted a ticket with the Forza support team - They closed it with the advice "This is a known issue and the Devs are working on a fix". So here is to hoping that the Forza team is doing as you described! :)

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Robert Peck
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Unfortunately Zebulon, that's been the canned answer for anything wheel related for about 5 years now.

I would like to hope a solution can be implemented that doesn't punish the non Forza players. An optional download, something that triggers only with the Forza profile launch, a check box in the settings, "Forza Mode".

Forza is not a simulator, so any lag induced to correct the frame rate would be not be a compromise at all for the title itself. Infact, that's the biggest issue IMO with the glitch is that forcing a 60 FPS Vsync makes my input lag 70+ms when at full framerate and gsync on it's around 27ms. I doubt an alternate fix will be any worse than that.

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PeterS
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My understanding is that FH5 uses the same engine as FH4, and Playground Games Studios couldn't take on a larger engine change (decoupling the physics from the render thread). From my communications with a contact in Turn 10 they are working on a different engine for Forza Motorsports 8 which would have this problem addressed.

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Bernard Villers Jr
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I'm glad to hear that this might be the last version of Forza with this issue!

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Robert Peck
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The semi-confirmed rumor is that Motorsport 8 will be the Unreal 5 engine. Depending on when it's released (probably this time next year) it will be the first racing sim on Unreal 5. No one has come out and officially said it's Unreal 5, that I'm aware of, but the job postings have all been for people with experience in that design engine.

On a side note, I messed with a bunch of processor affinity manual settings today in an attempt to make headway in this issue, including setting the GPU to use any of 24 available threads within a custom install of NVIDIA's driver's. I'm having a hard time confirming that this is the issue, or the only issue. Playing the game without AF2 plugged in, being GPU bound on water-cooled 2070 super uses a grand total of between 9-11% total CPU usage on my 5900x. Windows is confirmed to be using the proper AGESA scheduler from my BIOS for the processor cores, I opened up the GPU to use the closest available and it all changed nothing. Next step is to debug the USB input and output itself. 3 different drivers and a stand alone USB card didn't change it either. I'm leaning towards a serious mismatch in expected/supported FFB frequency between the wheel and game. I am yet to find a confirmed parameter for the game, was hopeful I would and it could be edited.

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PeterS
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FYI @Bernard - I've passed the link to your post to my contact at Turn 10 and he will pass it on to Playground.

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Robert Peck
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BTW, I'm not saying I disagree with your analysis of the problem, I may just not understand the concept well enough. Maybe what you are explaining could cause what I am seeing. If I understand the gist of it though; I think you are saying that the game design doesn't allow multiple cores to manage the FFB and or Video card, or both. I think that implies that saturation or threads or cores is taking place. That is what I am not seeing. In all of my tests and logs I never see any threads or cores even border on getting saturated. This game is not very CPU intensive, with the AF2 powered off I am GPU bound with only 2 cores or 4 CPU threads out of 24 threads. I can literally max out a 2070 super with 2 cores of a 5900x with this particular game. According to the in game benchmark, my CPU performance takes a 420% hit from just flipping the switch and powering on the AF2 during the benchmark. If someone does happen to get the ear of someone at turn 10, I hope these types of details are passed along. I just can't see this kind of impact being because something doesn't play well with multi-threading.

Here is a link to some test results from some windows performance analyzer recordings I did today. The big drop on the graph is turning the AF2 power off while in game, the rest of the pictures are the items that spike with the AF2 on and drop dramatically with it off. Most seen related to USB and HASH verification.

Hope this helps someone

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=1Ys6lUms1iUgELSXaVFLoSnfaDtDntU7Z

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PeterS
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@Robert - FYI - I passed this on to my Turn 10 contact (who should send this over to Playground)

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Robert Peck
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Thanks Peter, hopefully something comes of some of my testing. I'm running out of ideas, Haven't even played the game since about the second day. I consider it pretty much unplayable at this point, I even submitted a request for a refund. I was doing some USB Wireshark testing recently and the update rate is absolutely staggering, If it is choking the game engine, I don't think a game-side fix is possible, without maybe the addition of the wheel and it's parameters being added to the game as a recognizable and pre configured wheel option.

I'm not sure if it's possible with the AF2, but I know that some other DD wheels have a setting to adjust the update rate of the wheel, that would solve the problem without a separate driver, I'm pretty certain. A game like FH5 doesn't need and probably isn't at all designed for a 500 full duplex FFB operations per second, even more communication takes place if SC4 is connected to the game. One way to confirm this theory would be if anyone has a PC or USB hub that is UBS 1.1, I dug through all my goodies and found about 3 USB 2.0 hub's, but no 1.1. The thought behind this is reducing the polling rate from a maximum 480mbps equivalent to 12mbps will cut the update rate significantly at the hardware level, thus reducing the saturation of the game, driver or whatever it is that can't seem to take the update rate it is getting. If anyone has a USB 1.1 hub, please just use the wheel through it and let me know the results.

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Bernard Villers Jr
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"even more communication takes place if SC4 is connected to the game" - That is for the most part incorrect. Sim Commander uses an entirely separate interface for its communication to the AccuForce. There is the standard interface and the interface used by Sim Commander. Each can run up to 1000Hz and these can be ran simultaneously.

"'m not sure if it's possible with the AF2, but I know that some other DD wheels have a setting to adjust the update rate of the wheel, that would solve the problem without a separate driver, I'm pretty certain. " - I'm afraid that's not the case. If we slow down our polling rate then it would only make the problem worse because each time Forza sends a command, it would taker eve longer to complete.

Here's to hoping for a fix in the next version!

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Robert Peck
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Bernard, I'm speaking about traffic from a purely physical interface perspective. I was using USBPcap and Wireshark to log all the interface traffic, primarily looking for differences between FH5 and games that work well and FH5 FFB enabled and not. I didn't break it down by logical interface, but I could see the additional, larger transfers with SC4 running, they have like a full profile list of capabilities in each transaction.

Hopefully there will be a fix at some point, I have a different impression of the issue than you do though, I can't imagine the game is requesting more updates than the 1000 per second that 1000hz is capable of, or I'm assuming 500 in 500 out. Maybe there is just to limit? No cap? That might make sense, if it will request as much as your CPU is capable of asking for? It seems like a tremendously inappropriate amount of transactions for one reason or another. I did see requests and replies becoming separated by 4-10 transactions with the game running. The other noticable difference was the data format between in and out, they seemed to almost be different HASH's or HASH bit's between the wheel or game data. Anyway, long story, but I just don't know enough about HID, USB and the like to know exactly what I am seeing. I think I'll be able to test my hardware throttle theory tomorrow though, Amazon had a trinket that I believe will do the trick.

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Bernard Villers Jr
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To the best of my knowledge, the bug, as I described it in the document below, was acknowledged by Forza and will be corrected in the next version. Granted, that was also said about the previous version, but we have to cut them a little slack. That development occurred during COVID and wound up being the same engine with new content.

https://www.simxperience.com/slides/slide/why-is-forza-framerate-lower-with-a-dd-wheel-93

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Henk Schoone
Best Answer

I submitted a ticket at the Forza team to, but since they did never anything for FH4, i not expecting them to fix this for us. 

Like Robert mentioned a "Forza Mode" would be the best solution. If this is possible and if Bernard is willing to put in the effort to make this happen for us. 

3 Comments
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Bernard Villers Jr
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If enough people want to compromise performance in other games to have this, we would certainly do it. It's not an optional thing as some have suggested though. We can't have it both ways.

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Robert Peck
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Well, worse case if enough people want it; couldn't it just be an option download on the site? I.E. a dead end fork in the road. Forza players could download that version and weight the impact on other titles, judge for themselves to keep it or not?

It doesn't make any sense to create a permanent impact on every title for the benefit of 1 title, although since I'm not a hardcore sim person it wouldn't bother me, it would still be completely unfair to push a lesser package to everyone.

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Henk Schoone
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A dedicated Forza driver as an optional download would be great. If there was such a driver i would install it.

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